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Hey guys, Oliver here. So this is a little awkward haha but anyways. Rich (I assure you that not capitalizing your name in the first comment was completely accidental), I meant that bit about you not talking about things facetiously. I often forget that stuff like that doesn't really translate on the internet, so my bad on that. I actually felt bad afterwards for phrasing it that way. Anyways, I really appreciate you guy's taking the time to talk about this and respond. I guess I want to begin my response by saying that I sometimes overreact in these situations. Although I was pretty sure that you guy's did realize that there are good Catholics or good members of any other church, the frustration kind of boils over for me sometimes when people just dump on the church. However, the problem I have with the way your approach the issue is that it is so divorced from the actual day-to-day experience of being Catholic. When you are very young and being raised Catholic, you don't learn about the historical fuckery that the Catholic church has engaged in. Obviously in many cases, that's because it is ignored, which is a problem, but I also think that those events don't relate to current experience in the way you think they do. I learned how to treat people correctly by sitting in mass when I was very small reading children's versions of the Bible stories about the good samaritan and all those stories. Again, I realize that there are plenty of fucked up stories in the Bible (as I now know), but it was those early stories and the influence of my hispanic catholic mother (they will drill that shit into you haha) that crafted me into a person that while not always good, at least tries to be. I guess what I'm saying is that contemporary catholics don't go around saying, “hey guys, that whole inquisition thing? that was pretty fucked up. I guess there is nothing of use that we can get from this place.” Many of them are aware of the inquisition's existence and almost certainly condemn it, but it also has very little to do with their own personal experience of the church. It has always seemed a little ridiculous to me to try to hold individual people responsible for events that happened sometimes hundreds of years before they were born. Clearly, the molestation issue is much more recent and within the scope of modern catholics. However, I would again say that you need to consider that while almost all catholic lay people would condemn the church's behavior in this matter, it is not the personal experience of many, perhaps even most, of those people. I'm trying to find a way to phrase this without sounding like I'm shirking the responsibility of lay people to try to demand change because that certainly is not my intention. I simply want to suggest that people don't go around thinking they need to create a justification to continue in the church because of outside events, particularly those that came many many many generations ago. What truly matters in that regard is what it has provided for the individual and the immediate community. I think the appeal of catholicism and religion in general is that it promises a meaning to life that everyone is looking for. It's not all just a empty void. I think that is the experience of many members, or at least it is for me, even though I no longer actually go to church.
Well…..I wrote that after only the first 20 minutes….so I might be back, but two more quick points: I think that history is a woefully neglected subject by most people in general so I'm right there with you on that. Also, I just want to clarify to Rich again that I really didn't mean to kick you around. I'm not a very confrontational dude. If we had had that conversation in person, I think you would have known I wasn't actually advocated censorship haha I just wish you would tone it down on the priest hate a little bit. They're not all creepy. A lot of them are really cool guys. That's all I'm saying (among all that other stuff that I was saying)
Oh one more thing for now, I also went to the Vatican when I was much younger and was at one of those audiences with the Pope (John Paul). I think you are portraying it in all the ways it could be seen as abusive and over-the-top and ignoring the way in which it is a beautiful thing to see thousands of people from different countries coming together to celebrate what they believe. Hearing John Paul speak to every nationality in their own language and hearing those nationalities cheer one by one was definitely one of the more awe-inspiring moments of my life.
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