Letter from an Agnostic-Catholic

# 02 Jul, 2013 00:22
Leo.heuser	There was a question asked during an earlier episode which I have been wanting to address on the forums. During one of the conversations about Catholicism, I believe it was Danielle who wanted to know how someone could be aware of the history of the church's failures and yet be Catholic. I believe I may be able to approach the subject from a new direction and help to shed a little light on the issue. I was raised Catholic, left the church in my teens, and came back after a long battle with meth addiction. But this isn't a “God saved me from drugs” story. What I came to realize in recovery and in jail was that my spiritual roots were in Christianity. Indeed, I don't think it would be a stretch to say the same for most of the Western world. Seeking to plant these roots deeper, I joined a Trappist monastery (perhaps you are familiar with our beers… with the intention of living the rest of my life as a monk. Instead, what I learned there was that Catholicism (and perhaps all religions) are mythological frameworks by which we approach ineffable truths inaccessible to the intellect. Any introductory course on Greek myth teaches this from day one, yet so many people find it hard to recognize myth in their own lives. Myth is the Zen finger pointing at the moon. It is real, and it is valuable in its own right. Ancient peoples told many fantastical stories in an attempt to explain the things which stirred wonder in their hearts. We are no different. The doctrine of the Trinity is a paradox which forces the mind to hold the one and the many in rational tension. The divinity of Christ shows that matter itself participates in divinity and that humanity is divine. The story of the Fall can help us understand the loss of the innocence of childhood and the growth into the struggles of adulthood (and the desire to regain innocence lost). I know that most Catholics don't think about their faith this way, but there are many who do. Particularly those among us who are comfortable with creating our own religion. I am Catholic because it is a part of my heritage and my identity. And it is deeper than simply trusting those old, lying fucks at the Vatican. We don't all blindly trust the Pope and the bishops, and we don't all oppose gay marriage and contraception. Some of us, particularly those with a mystical bent and a rational mind, can see the moon without getting too distracted by the finger pointing at it. There is truth in myth. We all choose which myths to use for ourselves, but at the end of the day, you cannot put the ineffable into words. In this sense, even science is myth. Anyone who disagrees hasn't studied quantum theory. I hope all this makes at least some sense to someone. It's just been on my mind for a while, and after Danielle responded to my tweets, I realized he might actually read my thoughts on this. But I'm high right now, so maybe it's all just a bunch of shit. Either way, I love the podcast. So glad I heard you on Rogan and DTFH. You're changing lives, fellas. Thanks for everything you do. And if I ever get caught up on bills, I'll be having my name butchered. For now, it's more important to me to read your books. All the love in the world. Leo quote

# 02 Jul, 2013 00:22

There was a question asked during an earlier episode which I have been wanting to address on the forums. During one of the conversations about Catholicism, I believe it was Danielle who wanted to know how someone could be aware of the history of the church's failures and yet be Catholic. I believe I may be able to approach the subject from a new direction and help to shed a little light on the issue.

I was raised Catholic, left the church in my teens, and came back after a long battle with meth addiction. But this isn't a “God saved me from drugs” story. What I came to realize in recovery and in jail was that my spiritual roots were in Christianity. Indeed, I don't think it would be a stretch to say the same for most of the Western world. Seeking to plant these roots deeper, I joined a Trappist monastery (perhaps you are familiar with our beers… smile

with the intention of living the rest of my life as a monk. Instead, what I learned there was that Catholicism (and perhaps all religions) are mythological frameworks by which we approach ineffable truths inaccessible to the intellect. Any introductory course on Greek myth teaches this from day one, yet so many people find it hard to recognize myth in their own lives. Myth is the Zen finger pointing at the moon. It is real, and it is valuable in its own right.

Ancient peoples told many fantastical stories in an attempt to explain the things which stirred wonder in their hearts. We are no different. The doctrine of the Trinity is a paradox which forces the mind to hold the one and the many in rational tension. The divinity of Christ shows that matter itself participates in divinity and that humanity is divine. The story of the Fall can help us understand the loss of the innocence of childhood and the growth into the struggles of adulthood (and the desire to regain innocence lost).

I know that most Catholics don't think about their faith this way, but there are many who do. Particularly those among us who are comfortable with creating our own religion. I am Catholic because it is a part of my heritage and my identity. And it is deeper than simply trusting those old, lying fucks at the Vatican. We don't all blindly trust the Pope and the bishops, and we don't all oppose gay marriage and contraception. Some of us, particularly those with a mystical bent and a rational mind, can see the moon without getting too distracted by the finger pointing at it. There is truth in myth. We all choose which myths to use for ourselves, but at the end of the day, you cannot put the ineffable into words. In this sense, even science is myth. Anyone who disagrees hasn't studied quantum theory.

I hope all this makes at least some sense to someone. It's just been on my mind for a while, and after Danielle responded to my tweets, I realized he might actually read my thoughts on this. But I'm high right now, so maybe it's all just a bunch of shit. Either way, I love the podcast. So glad I heard you on Rogan and DTFH. You're changing lives, fellas. Thanks for everything you do. And if I ever get caught up on bills, I'll be having my name butchered. For now, it's more important to me to read your books.

All the love in the world.
Leo

# 07 Jul, 2013 20:31
SatanaJoy	I tend to agree with Daniele about this, but having Catholics in my own family has caused me to try to understand why anyone would still cling to Catholicism after all the horrific history and scandals. My sister-in-law converted to Catholicism a few years ago after being married to a Catholic man for nearly 20 years. Their kids go to a Catholic school where the parents are really involved, and the whole family is involved in community projects through their church. For my sister-in-law, it seems she's taking and holding onto what's been good about her particular experience with her particular church, and doesn't see what's happened at other churches, dioceses, or the Vatican as having anything to do with her. She and her husband are not anti-gay or anti-contraception. They don't believe the pope is infallible. This leads me to the question: Are you really Catholic if you don't believe in the Catholic dogma? I can understand how the rituals could be familiar and comforting if you were raised with them, but just by self-identifying as Catholic and attending a Catholic church (if you do), aren't you lending credence to “those old, lying fucks at the Vatican”? quote

# 07 Jul, 2013 20:31

SatanaJoy

I tend to agree with Daniele about this, but having Catholics in my own family has caused me to try to understand why anyone would still cling to Catholicism after all the horrific history and scandals. My sister-in-law converted to Catholicism a few years ago after being married to a Catholic man for nearly 20 years. Their kids go to a Catholic school where the parents are really involved, and the whole family is involved in community projects through their church. For my sister-in-law, it seems she's taking and holding onto what's been good about her particular experience with her particular church, and doesn't see what's happened at other churches, dioceses, or the Vatican as having anything to do with her. She and her husband are not anti-gay or anti-contraception. They don't believe the pope is infallible. This leads me to the question:
Are you really Catholic if you don't believe in the Catholic dogma?

I can understand how the rituals could be familiar and comforting if you were raised with them, but just by self-identifying as Catholic and attending a Catholic church (if you do), aren't you lending credence to “those old, lying fucks at the Vatican”?

# 09 Jul, 2013 22:25
Leo.heuser	Thank god. I was hoping someone would come along and challenge me on this. Having my ideas bounced off others is the only way I have found to truly refine them. Not by arguing, mind, but by simple discussion. So thanks, for starters. As for whether or not I can really be considered catholic if I don't adhere to the dogmas of the church, I would say this: most Catholics I know have a hard time considering me catholic, and understandably so. However, most non-Catholics I know think of me as devoutly catholic. Why the difference in perception? I don't really have a good answer for that yet, but it seems to me that people all have their own reasons for labeling one another, and these reasons are more often than not rooted in a partial understanding at best (at worst, ignorance and hatred). So what's a boy to do? I decide for myself what I am. And I don't go proclaiming it from the rooftops, because I'm sick of fighting with sanctimonious assholes who know little about their own faith, but think they can tell me whether I belong or not. I love the mythology of Christianity, and I love most of its rituals, so I incorporate them into my life and the life of my family as we see fit. I learned from my study of Zen that teachings and practices are only tools to get you to understand that you ultimately don't need them. Some things I still need. Others have done their job, and I have put them down. Do I lend credence to the hierarchy by attending church and self identifying as catholic? I had to think about this one for a bit, but my question to you is, what do you think? In one interaction, have I seemed to do so to you? Perhaps in evening news statistics, my attendance would lend credence to American Catholicism as it is perceived in popular culture, but I'm fairly certain I do more in the opposite direction simply by talking to people about my thoughts. The Catholic Church, as an old priest once told me, began in compassion only to end in administration. I don't think I'm any less catholic for rejecting the political power structure and its promulgation of dogma against free thought. But I am fully aware of being seen as less catholic by nearly everyone (except, interestingly, my dad, who is an ordained deacon in a conservative church–and happens to think very similarly to me). But at the end of it all, if I do my best to not be a cunt, what does it matter? Again, thanks. I haven't gotten a chance to have many discussions like this since I left the monastery. And my wife absolutely hates it when I try to talk to her about spirituality or philosophy. quote

# 09 Jul, 2013 22:25

Leo.heuser

Thank god. I was hoping someone would come along and challenge me on this. Having my ideas bounced off others is the only way I have found to truly refine them. Not by arguing, mind, but by simple discussion. So thanks, for starters.

As for whether or not I can really be considered catholic if I don't adhere to the dogmas of the church, I would say this: most Catholics I know have a hard time considering me catholic, and understandably so. However, most non-Catholics I know think of me as devoutly catholic. Why the difference in perception? I don't really have a good answer for that yet, but it seems to me that people all have their own reasons for labeling one another, and these reasons are more often than not rooted in a partial understanding at best (at worst, ignorance and hatred). So what's a boy to do? I decide for myself what I am. And I don't go proclaiming it from the rooftops, because I'm sick of fighting with sanctimonious assholes who know little about their own faith, but think they can tell me whether I belong or not. I love the mythology of Christianity, and I love most of its rituals, so I incorporate them into my life and the life of my family as we see fit. I learned from my study of Zen that teachings and practices are only tools to get you to understand that you ultimately don't need them. Some things I still need. Others have done their job, and I have put them down.

Do I lend credence to the hierarchy by attending church and self identifying as catholic? I had to think about this one for a bit, but my question to you is, what do you think? In one interaction, have I seemed to do so to you? Perhaps in evening news statistics, my attendance would lend credence to American Catholicism as it is perceived in popular culture, but I'm fairly certain I do more in the opposite direction simply by talking to people about my thoughts.

The Catholic Church, as an old priest once told me, began in compassion only to end in administration. I don't think I'm any less catholic for rejecting the political power structure and its promulgation of dogma against free thought. But I am fully aware of being seen as less catholic by nearly everyone (except, interestingly, my dad, who is an ordained deacon in a conservative church–and happens to think very similarly to me). But at the end of it all, if I do my best to not be a cunt, what does it matter?

Again, thanks. I haven't gotten a chance to have many discussions like this since I left the monastery. And my wife absolutely hates it when I try to talk to her about spirituality or philosophy.

# 12 Jul, 2013 06:39
eopck	I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white. The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years. quote

# 12 Jul, 2013 06:39

eopck

I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white.
The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years.

# 12 Jul, 2013 21:22
SatanaJoy	Leo.heuser Do I lend credence to the hierarchy by attending church and self identifying as catholic? I had to think about this one for a bit, but my question to you is, what do you think? In one interaction, have I seemed to do so to you? Perhaps in evening news statistics, my attendance would lend credence to American Catholicism as it is perceived in popular culture, but I'm fairly certain I do more in the opposite direction simply by talking to people about my thoughts. Ultimately, my opinion is that you do lend credence to the hierarchy of the church just by being a member. If you were actively trying to change things from inside of the church because you feel it's message and scope of practice has gotten skewed, then I can understand staying involved. But you (and pretty much every Catholic I know except for a few elderly folks) seem to take what you like and agree with and have made your own version of the faith, and also appear to think of yourself as not being connected to the hierarchy at all. But I think you are only propping up the hierarchy by continuing to be a church member. Part of the influence the church tries to exert comes from the number of people it has in its flock, doesn't it? The bigger their membership, the more they try to throw their weight around? I heard something interesting on a WTF podcast with Irish comedian Dylan Moran (episode 343). Moran claimed the Catholic church in Ireland has been decimated due to the Irish leaving their congregations after the pedophilia scandal. He said 90-95% of people attended mass when he was a child (he's now in his early 40s) and now it's 10%. I keep thinking if most Catholics left the church in protest, as a moral imperative, then either the hierarchy would fall or perhaps a new, reformed Catholic faith would arise. Or possibly both. I know this hasn't been just a Catholic church issue, either. This type of abuse happens in other faiths (large and small), orphanages, juvenile facilities, asylums, schools, etc.–basically anywhere people have “power” ascribed to them and the protection of the supposed “morality” of the institution they work for. quote

# 12 Jul, 2013 21:22

SatanaJoy

Leo.heuser
Do I lend credence to the hierarchy by attending church and self identifying as catholic? I had to think about this one for a bit, but my question to you is, what do you think? In one interaction, have I seemed to do so to you? Perhaps in evening news statistics, my attendance would lend credence to American Catholicism as it is perceived in popular culture, but I'm fairly certain I do more in the opposite direction simply by talking to people about my thoughts.

Ultimately, my opinion is that you do lend credence to the hierarchy of the church just by being a member. If you were actively trying to change things from inside of the church because you feel it's message and scope of practice has gotten skewed, then I can understand staying involved. But you (and pretty much every Catholic I know except for a few elderly folks) seem to take what you like and agree with and have made your own version of the faith, and also appear to think of yourself as not being connected to the hierarchy at all. But I think you are only propping up the hierarchy by continuing to be a church member. Part of the influence the church tries to exert comes from the number of people it has in its flock, doesn't it? The bigger their membership, the more they try to throw their weight around?

I heard something interesting on a WTF podcast with Irish comedian Dylan Moran (episode 343). Moran claimed the Catholic church in Ireland has been decimated due to the Irish leaving their congregations after the pedophilia scandal. He said 90-95% of people attended mass when he was a child (he's now in his early 40s) and now it's 10%. I keep thinking if most Catholics left the church in protest, as a moral imperative, then either the hierarchy would fall or perhaps a new, reformed Catholic faith would arise. Or possibly both. I know this hasn't been just a Catholic church issue, either. This type of abuse happens in other faiths (large and small), orphanages, juvenile facilities, asylums, schools, etc.–basically anywhere people have “power” ascribed to them and the protection of the supposed “morality” of the institution they work for.

# 12 Jul, 2013 21:59
SatanaJoy	Leo.heuser The Catholic Church, as an old priest once told me, began in compassion only to end in administration. I don't think I'm any less catholic for rejecting the political power structure and its promulgation of dogma against free thought. But I am fully aware of being seen as less catholic by nearly everyone (except, interestingly, my dad, who is an ordained deacon in a conservative church–and happens to think very similarly to me). But at the end of it all, if I do my best to not be a cunt, what does it matter? Again, thanks. I haven't gotten a chance to have many discussions like this since I left the monastery. And my wife absolutely hates it when I try to talk to her about spirituality or philosophy. I was raised in a Lutheran church. I went through catechism, confirmation, took communion, and attended church all because it's what my parents wanted. There was never any other option in their view. I never agreed with or believed the Lutheran dogma, so didn't consider myself a Lutheran. If I apply the same standard to you, then you're not Catholic. But, I really want to understand why your father thinks you are. What am I not getting? You asked what does it matter if you just try to be a decent person after all? It matters because I don't think the highest ideals of the doctrine can be separated now from the astoundingly horrible acts. A false prophet is a false prophet. quote

# 12 Jul, 2013 21:59

SatanaJoy

Leo.heuser
The Catholic Church, as an old priest once told me, began in compassion only to end in administration. I don't think I'm any less catholic for rejecting the political power structure and its promulgation of dogma against free thought. But I am fully aware of being seen as less catholic by nearly everyone (except, interestingly, my dad, who is an ordained deacon in a conservative church–and happens to think very similarly to me). But at the end of it all, if I do my best to not be a cunt, what does it matter?

Again, thanks. I haven't gotten a chance to have many discussions like this since I left the monastery. And my wife absolutely hates it when I try to talk to her about spirituality or philosophy.

I was raised in a Lutheran church. I went through catechism, confirmation, took communion, and attended church all because it's what my parents wanted. There was never any other option in their view. I never agreed with or believed the Lutheran dogma, so didn't consider myself a Lutheran. If I apply the same standard to you, then you're not Catholic. But, I really want to understand why your father thinks you are. What am I not getting?

You asked what does it matter if you just try to be a decent person after all? It matters because I don't think the highest ideals of the doctrine can be separated now from the astoundingly horrible acts. A false prophet is a false prophet.

# 13 Jul, 2013 07:04
XtrialbyfireX	eopck I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white. The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years. The KKK doesn't also have a history of feeding poor people or building hospitals though, so that's a pretty shitty comparison. I'm not a fan of Catholicism but I find it ridiculous to view the Church in only black and white terms. quote

# 13 Jul, 2013 07:04

XtrialbyfireX

eopck
I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white.
The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years.

The KKK doesn't also have a history of feeding poor people or building hospitals though, so that's a pretty shitty comparison.

I'm not a fan of Catholicism but I find it ridiculous to view the Church in only black and white terms.

# 13 Jul, 2013 19:02
SatanaJoy	XtrialbyfireX eopck I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white. The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years. The KKK doesn't also have a history of feeding poor people or building hospitals though, so that's a pretty shitty comparison. I'm not a fan of Catholicism but I find it ridiculous to view the Church in only black and white terms. It's true that Catholic Charities do a lot of good work. Also, could anyone argue against what Mother Teresa did with her life? I don't think so. But the hospital thing is a murky subject. I live in a small town where there is only one hospital, and it's a Catholic hospital. Sure, they do some great things like reaching out to the indigent and writing off some of the care they give as charity when people can't pay their bill. That's great for the community. BUT, they also will not perform vasectomies or tubal ligations or dispense birth control. That sucks for the community. It's likely when this hospital was founded decades ago, the area's population was predominantly Catholic. It's not that way anymore, but we are stuck with this hospital and its religious charter. quote

# 13 Jul, 2013 19:02

SatanaJoy

XtrialbyfireX
eopck
I too find it very hard to see how someone could identify themselves as Catholic despite being aware of the numerous atrocities the Catholic church has committed. Someone who refers to themselves as a Catholic yet only supports the churches view on a select few issues, Is like a member of the Klu Klux Klan defending his allegiance simply because he enjoys wearing white.
The Catholic church is poisoning the waters of humanity, Has been for hundreds of years.

The KKK doesn't also have a history of feeding poor people or building hospitals though, so that's a pretty shitty comparison.

I'm not a fan of Catholicism but I find it ridiculous to view the Church in only black and white terms.

It's true that Catholic Charities do a lot of good work. Also, could anyone argue against what Mother Teresa did with her life? I don't think so. But the hospital thing is a murky subject. I live in a small town where there is only one hospital, and it's a Catholic hospital. Sure, they do some great things like reaching out to the indigent and writing off some of the care they give as charity when people can't pay their bill. That's great for the community. BUT, they also will not perform vasectomies or tubal ligations or dispense birth control. That sucks for the community. It's likely when this hospital was founded decades ago, the area's population was predominantly Catholic. It's not that way anymore, but we are stuck with this hospital and its religious charter.