Pure vs Mixed Martial Arts

# 03 Apr, 2013 13:47
DjMagik	I will begin with my conclusion to the idea which is that a mixed martial arts history is critical after one has eternalized the basic principles and fundamentals of a martial art. I will quote aikido master Karl Geis to get you people riled up. “The true masters know that once a student has achieved the essence in one art, the fundamental secrets of all other arts will be within his grasp.” He uses an analogy with oil and how important it is in our modern world, but only as useful if we can take its essential components and extract them to make gasoline, plastic, and even fertilizer. One of my favorite examples is Daniel Cormier. In my book he is a wrestling master, and with that was able to get proper coaching and straight out-box Josh Barnett who has been fighting pro mma since 1997. Barnett is a badass wrestler, but he just doesn't have the depth of skill or understanding that Cormier does from competing at such a high level in his own art. Bruce Lee-“I fear not the man who has practice 10,000 kicks once, but the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright quote

# 03 Apr, 2013 13:47

I will begin with my conclusion to the idea which is that a mixed martial arts history is critical after one has eternalized the basic principles and fundamentals of a martial art.

I will quote aikido master Karl Geis to get you people riled up. “The true masters know that once a student has achieved the essence in one art, the fundamental secrets of all other arts will be within his grasp.”

He uses an analogy with oil and how important it is in our modern world, but only as useful if we can take its essential components and extract them to make gasoline, plastic, and even fertilizer.

One of my favorite examples is Daniel Cormier. In my book he is a wrestling master, and with that was able to get proper coaching and straight out-box Josh Barnett who has been fighting pro mma since 1997. Barnett is a badass wrestler, but he just doesn't have the depth of skill or understanding that Cormier does from competing at such a high level in his own art.

Bruce Lee-“I fear not the man who has practice 10,000 kicks once, but the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”

Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright

# 03 Apr, 2013 14:03
DjMagik	I will also add a little story from my own life. I have trained in aikido for a couple of years and unfortunately I am the most advanced in my class and have done nothing but help teach the basics for a year now. We don't do belts, but when I caught the MMA bug and wanted to fight I joined the local Gracie Barra BJJ school and figured I would round out my fighting game. My aikido teacher has taught me to always stay centered, if you have to use strength you are doing it wrong, never struggle for a move just go for another one, and to react more than making things happen. With only this in mind I was frustrating the hell out of blue belts on my first day. I couldn't submit them, but they were powerless against me. I could see their frustration, and they weren't helping me get any better because they had egos. Eventually I trained under the eye of the owner, Draculino, and he swore that I had at least wrestled before. I told him aikido, but a month later when he knew me a bit better he asked me if I was lying the first time about having experience in BJJ. Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright quote

# 03 Apr, 2013 14:03

DjMagik

I will also add a little story from my own life. I have trained in aikido for a couple of years and unfortunately I am the most advanced in my class and have done nothing but help teach the basics for a year now. We don't do belts, but when I caught the MMA bug and wanted to fight I joined the local Gracie Barra BJJ school and figured I would round out my fighting game.

My aikido teacher has taught me to always stay centered, if you have to use strength you are doing it wrong, never struggle for a move just go for another one, and to react more than making things happen.

With only this in mind I was frustrating the hell out of blue belts on my first day. I couldn't submit them, but they were powerless against me. I could see their frustration, and they weren't helping me get any better because they had egos. Eventually I trained under the eye of the owner, Draculino, and he swore that I had at least wrestled before. I told him aikido, but a month later when he knew me a bit better he asked me if I was lying the first time about having experience in BJJ.

Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright

# 04 Apr, 2013 00:16
Troyh	I would have to say that I do disagree with a few of your points DjMagik. First of all I completely disagree with the idea that mastering one martial art will give you relevant skills in other martial arts. In some cases I would even argue that in some cases the opposite would be true, learning a particular style would actually detract from the ability to naturally pick up principles of another art. I know many real life stories where I have seen this to be true. I train with a friend of mine who was 5 time national karate champion & represented my country in Judo, training in japan. Let me tell you if you put a pair of boxing gloves on this guy it is laughable. He is improving but finding it very slow going because he is not used to relying on his hands & finds it hard to alter his adopted techniques. I have found the same to be true for wrestling. He has outstanding Judo, such a large amount of knowledge it is incredible really. But do you think this translates into wrestling at all? The concept of getting in close, sprawling, all of these things are alien to him. If there is one place that his prior knowledge has helped him it is in jiu-jitsu, similar to yourself him studying judo has given him a good understanding of using his base, going with techniques & that natural “flow” that is so important in jiu-jitsu. I believe the only application for the idea that mastering one art will teach you others is true for that of the grappling arts, which you study. Aikido, Judo & wrestling all translate well to survival in jiu-jitsu I have found. This is what allows wrestlers to become power punchers such as Hendricks & Cormier. It isn't because they learnt the secret to a power punch by having a good wrestling stance, it is because there is no fear of being taken down. Its similar to Cowboy Cerrone being able to throw head kicks all day because he knows he can do damage off his back & doesn't fear being there. In regards to the Cormier fight, he did amazing. i would note that Barnett broke his hand in the first round & his best days are behind him. Hopefully he is around for a long time because he is definitely a warrior. quote

# 04 Apr, 2013 00:16

Troyh

I would have to say that I do disagree with a few of your points DjMagik.

First of all I completely disagree with the idea that mastering one martial art will give you relevant skills in other martial arts. In some cases I would even argue that in some cases the opposite would be true, learning a particular style would actually detract from the ability to naturally pick up principles of another art.

I know many real life stories where I have seen this to be true. I train with a friend of mine who was 5 time national karate champion & represented my country in Judo, training in japan. Let me tell you if you put a pair of boxing gloves on this guy it is laughable. He is improving but finding it very slow going because he is not used to relying on his hands & finds it hard to alter his adopted techniques. I have found the same to be true for wrestling. He has outstanding Judo, such a large amount of knowledge it is incredible really. But do you think this translates into wrestling at all? The concept of getting in close, sprawling, all of these things are alien to him.

If there is one place that his prior knowledge has helped him it is in jiu-jitsu, similar to yourself him studying judo has given him a good understanding of using his base, going with techniques & that natural “flow” that is so important in jiu-jitsu. I believe the only application for the idea that mastering one art will teach you others is true for that of the grappling arts, which you study. Aikido, Judo & wrestling all translate well to survival in jiu-jitsu I have found. This is what allows wrestlers to become power punchers such as Hendricks & Cormier. It isn't because they learnt the secret to a power punch by having a good wrestling stance, it is because there is no fear of being taken down. Its similar to Cowboy Cerrone being able to throw head kicks all day because he knows he can do damage off his back & doesn't fear being there. In regards to the Cormier fight, he did amazing. i would note that Barnett broke his hand in the first round & his best days are behind him. Hopefully he is around for a long time because he is definitely a warrior.

# 04 Apr, 2013 04:47
DjMagik	I can only speak from my experience, but this friend of yours seems to be a rare case indeed. I have trained and sparred with some karate people and found that the system uses a base which is not the case in judo; also, they stand more like a boxer and deliver powerful strikes. All the different martial arts develop your timing and mindset, but you can't teach that directly. By mindset I mean what your go to skill is when shit hits the fan pretty much. For me it is better if I can gain a certain confidence with a certain set of these principles in order to let my mind go blank and do the peripheral/fast type of thinking that is unprocessed. Obviously there are going to be weaknesses, but I only think purity should be a beginning. P.S.-Some of the reasoning behind me thinking this are the similarities I have found in catch wrestling and aikido. i wish i could learn from somebody around my area no clue why it isn't more popular. Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright quote

# 04 Apr, 2013 04:47

DjMagik

I can only speak from my experience, but this friend of yours seems to be a rare case indeed. I have trained and sparred with some karate people and found that the system uses a base which is not the case in judo; also, they stand more like a boxer and deliver powerful strikes.

All the different martial arts develop your timing and mindset, but you can't teach that directly. By mindset I mean what your go to skill is when shit hits the fan pretty much. For me it is better if I can gain a certain confidence with a certain set of these principles in order to let my mind go blank and do the peripheral/fast type of thinking that is unprocessed. Obviously there are going to be weaknesses, but I only think purity should be a beginning.

P.S.-Some of the reasoning behind me thinking this are the similarities I have found in catch wrestling and aikido. i wish i could learn from somebody around my area no clue why it isn't more popular.

Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright

# 04 Apr, 2013 09:50
Troyh	I find the karate stance, at least which I have seen is very counter intuitive to boxing. Perhaps the people I have trained with have a different stance to the Karate practitioners you have been around. They do have excellent footwork for creating angles but I have found they fall to pieces once it is all put together. I still wouldn't want to cross my mate on a bad day as far as Karate goes he is on point! I completely agree with you on catch wrestling I really cant understand how it isn't more popular. I essentially did catch exclusively for 6 months when a small guy from the UK started teaching a catch wrestling class on weekends. I had never seen anything like it. He weighed 72kg max & absolutely tore through everybody in the gym. When the rules were out the window (neck cranks, leg locks etc) he was truly something else. From what I have seen from catch it seems to be the most effective submission game. Shame that guy had to leave no more catch for me! quote

# 04 Apr, 2013 09:50

Troyh

I find the karate stance, at least which I have seen is very counter intuitive to boxing. Perhaps the people I have trained with have a different stance to the Karate practitioners you have been around. They do have excellent footwork for creating angles but I have found they fall to pieces once it is all put together. I still wouldn't want to cross my mate on a bad day as far as Karate goes he is on point!

I completely agree with you on catch wrestling I really cant understand how it isn't more popular. I essentially did catch exclusively for 6 months when a small guy from the UK started teaching a catch wrestling class on weekends. I had never seen anything like it. He weighed 72kg max & absolutely tore through everybody in the gym. When the rules were out the window (neck cranks, leg locks etc) he was truly something else. From what I have seen from catch it seems to be the most effective submission game. Shame that guy had to leave no more catch for me!

# 16 Apr, 2013 22:59
Z.W.	I think the Karl Geis idea is referring to a true master. I'm talkin Pei Mei shit, Ueshiba shit. A level of understanding so inclusive, those of us not yet enlightened have a hard time grasping it. Being accustomed to standing in a karate stance won't help your rubber guard, but truly understanding the art of karate will give you a back door into any other art, and not just those of the martial variety. quote

# 16 Apr, 2013 22:59

Z.W.

I think the Karl Geis idea is referring to a true master. I'm talkin Pei Mei shit, Ueshiba shit. A level of understanding so inclusive, those of us not yet enlightened have a hard time grasping it. Being accustomed to standing in a karate stance won't help your rubber guard, but truly understanding the art of karate will give you a back door into any other art, and not just those of the martial variety.

# 30 Apr, 2013 09:28
Makiwara	I think the idea that your aikido master may have been leaning more towards was the notion that when you learn a martial art, you are actually learning the mastery of yourself as an art. More pointedly for this conversation, you are learning correct body mechanics, or you're not, and that makes 100% the difference. If you learn to master your body mechanics then learning to apply your body to a new task becomes much easier and faster. If you are like the vast majority of people however and you just rote learn single techniques or paths or strategies then you have in essence a single word or sentence with no connection to the language around it. quote

# 30 Apr, 2013 09:28

Makiwara

I think the idea that your aikido master may have been leaning more towards was the notion that when you learn a martial art, you are actually learning the mastery of yourself as an art. More pointedly for this conversation, you are learning correct body mechanics, or you're not, and that makes 100% the difference.

If you learn to master your body mechanics then learning to apply your body to a new task becomes much easier and faster.

If you are like the vast majority of people however and you just rote learn single techniques or paths or strategies then you have in essence a single word or sentence with no connection to the language around it.