The Protestant Work Ethic and Puritanism

# 01 Apr, 2013 16:22
Underwater	There was a lot of discussion of the flaws protestant work ethic in this podcast. My question is that are these really bad things? Of course they can be taken to the extreme when they are shoved down other peoples' throats. Still, this made me think of a recent, for lack of a better term, spiritual transformation I've been moving towards. I had some health issues and other life complications that shattered my ego and forced me to reflect intensely upon my life. This led to heavy feelings of regret and self loathing in reaction to reflecting upon all of the time I wasted slacking, sitting around watching movies and TV, smoking weed and drinking, spacing out to music, reading random nonsense on the internet, ect. The conclusions I've come to in my new “religion”, is that I need to redeem myself from my failures in the past through constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study. A lot of this was provoked by withdrawing from the antidepressant I was on. The withdrawal process brought about a sense of compulsive urgency, a need to always be doing, and a feeling that this mentality is the will of God manifesting itself through personal will. I also, have the idea that I need to become celibate, for at least a year or so, in order to transmute sexual energy into productive momentum. The thing is, this doesn't come from any kind of Christian puritanical ideology, but it's more derivative of eastern philosophy, mainly involving the ideas of karma, reincarnation and samskaras. I agree with the yogis in that our unfulfilled desires will be what ties us to the cycle of death and rebirth as we die and become subsequently reincarnated. However, I part ways with the yogis in their belief that the goal is to become free from desire. I do agree that our desires and tendencies are stored in out samskaras, seeds of our psyche that we carry over from one incarnation to the next. However, instead of becoming detached from out desire, I thing the goal is to “hack” our samskaras, by realizing what character flaws, such as laziness and compulsive substance abuse, impeded our path to self actualization and evolution in this life, and work to build new and improved samskaras, so we may carry these advantages over to out next incarnation and move further towards self actualization in the next life, whether or not our dreams and fulfilled in the present life. This requires constant hard work and focus. Even though one may hate one's job in this life, unless one has a plan to get out of it, one should focus one's energies on that job as if it were a matter of life and death, so that the drive one develops will be more likely to manifest when one has more suitable opportunities in one's next incarnations. One should exercise before work, work above expectations at the job, and do deep mediation after work before working to make sure one's house or apartment is in perfect order to etch the pattern of forward momentum in one's samskaras, so one will “remember” the path to fulfillment in the next life. I know this is unconventional, and I realize it is the product of stress, desperation, and trauma, and also realize I'm being a hypocrite for taking the time to post this on the internet instead of doing other stuff (while smoking a cig no less), but I would appreciate feedback on these ideas. quote

# 01 Apr, 2013 16:22

There was a lot of discussion of the flaws protestant work ethic in this podcast. My question is that are these really bad things? Of course they can be taken to the extreme when they are shoved down other peoples' throats. Still, this made me think of a recent, for lack of a better term, spiritual transformation I've been moving towards. I had some health issues and other life complications that shattered my ego and forced me to reflect intensely upon my life. This led to heavy feelings of regret and self loathing in reaction to reflecting upon all of the time I wasted slacking, sitting around watching movies and TV, smoking weed and drinking, spacing out to music, reading random nonsense on the internet, ect.

The conclusions I've come to in my new “religion”, is that I need to redeem myself from my failures in the past through constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study. A lot of this was provoked by withdrawing from the antidepressant I was on. The withdrawal process brought about a sense of compulsive urgency, a need to always be doing, and a feeling that this mentality is the will of God manifesting itself through personal will. I also, have the idea that I need to become celibate, for at least a year or so, in order to transmute sexual energy into productive momentum.

The thing is, this doesn't come from any kind of Christian puritanical ideology, but it's more derivative of eastern philosophy, mainly involving the ideas of karma, reincarnation and samskaras. I agree with the yogis in that our unfulfilled desires will be what ties us to the cycle of death and rebirth as we die and become subsequently reincarnated. However, I part ways with the yogis in their belief that the goal is to become free from desire. I do agree that our desires and tendencies are stored in out samskaras, seeds of our psyche that we carry over from one incarnation to the next. However, instead of becoming detached from out desire, I thing the goal is to “hack” our samskaras, by realizing what character flaws, such as laziness and compulsive substance abuse, impeded our path to self actualization and evolution in this life, and work to build new and improved samskaras, so we may carry these advantages over to out next incarnation and move further towards self actualization in the next life, whether or not our dreams and fulfilled in the present life. This requires constant hard work and focus.

Even though one may hate one's job in this life, unless one has a plan to get out of it, one should focus one's energies on that job as if it were a matter of life and death, so that the drive one develops will be more likely to manifest when one has more suitable opportunities in one's next incarnations. One should exercise before work, work above expectations at the job, and do deep mediation after work before working to make sure one's house or apartment is in perfect order to etch the pattern of forward momentum in one's samskaras, so one will “remember” the path to fulfillment in the next life.

I know this is unconventional, and I realize it is the product of stress, desperation, and trauma, and also realize I'm being a hypocrite for taking the time to post this on the internet instead of doing other stuff (while smoking a cig no less), but I would appreciate feedback on these ideas.

# 03 Apr, 2013 17:22
DjMagik	These things you have listed such as constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study when even done well could be seen as useless in the eyes of some. Do you measure it in terms of what you get out of it? Nothing as egotistical as money, but self empowerment is okay though, right? How many geniuses died broke such as Tesla and Socrates? I guess the whole idea is to try to do everything to the best of your ability. But what is worthy and makes you feel passion? The only advice I can think of is from a recent documentary I saw on Netflix about pro athletes who are now broke. “A goal without a plan is just a dream.”-No idea and too lazy to research. Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright quote

# 03 Apr, 2013 17:22

DjMagik

These things you have listed such as constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study when even done well could be seen as useless in the eyes of some. Do you measure it in terms of what you get out of it? Nothing as egotistical as money, but self empowerment is okay though, right? How many geniuses died broke such as Tesla and Socrates?

I guess the whole idea is to try to do everything to the best of your ability. But what is worthy and makes you feel passion? The only advice I can think of is from a recent documentary I saw on Netflix about pro athletes who are now broke.

“A goal without a plan is just a dream.”-No idea and too lazy to research.

Don't worry…everything's gonna be alright

# 03 Apr, 2013 19:25
Underwater	@DJMagik "These things you have listed such as constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study when even done well could be seen as useless in the eyes of some. Do you measure it in terms of what you get out of it? Nothing as egotistical as money, but self empowerment is okay though, right? How many geniuses died broke such as Tesla and Socrates?" This is where the protestant work ethic and eastern metaphysics fuse together in my new “religion”. The idea is to not think of the money you get out of working. Money is part of it, because the amount of money one has, if used wisely and not attained or maintained in a way that generates bad karma, can be used to empower one's evolution, if spent on things like supplements, exercise equipment, floatation tank sessions, travel to foreign countries, ect. Also, it's important to have money to protect oneself from downfalls, through medical issues, law suits, or disasters. It's also important to pay for education. Still, money should not be seen as the end all be all. One shouldn't work for the sole purpose of money, but for the self discipline developed through getting up and doing something one doesn't like all day, so this self discipline can be carried over into one's samskaras for the next incarnation. Though one might be stuck in a dead end job in this life, if one develops present mindfulness though meditation, and forward momentum and emotional release through exercise, the hope is that this mentality of focus, energy, and present minded based perseverance and patience will be carried over to more favorable circumstances in the next incarnation, and one can use the pattern that was developed under less favorable circumstance to propel oneself to self actualization and higher up the ladder of spiritual evolution. I haven't seen the documentary you mentioned, but the experienced mentioned in my OP ties into that. I used to fancy myself a mountain warrior, snowboarding, mountain biking, trail running, and summit hiking. When I came to a point in my health issues when I realized I will never do any of those things anymore, it became first an identity crisis, and then a spiritual crisis. The way things happened with my body seemed like it was an engineered process designed by a higher power, maybe karma, but I don't know. What burned me was that the activities I could no longer do had made me feel like I was on a path to self actualization. I felt myself transforming into a new person, one that my former self would never imagine possible. Then, my body fell apart piece by piece. I thought obsessively about what the spirits (for lack of a better term) were trying to teach me, or if I was being punished, or what the meaning of it all was. I came to the conclusion that this wasn't meant to be the incarnation in which I reach self actualization. I was being taught a lesson by the spirits, one, that once all my “toys” were taken away, at the core, I'm just a winy, scared little boy. I also felt like I had been shown a preview of what my mind will go through at the moment of death. I looked back on my life with a lot of regret. I had regret that I had chosen the mountain life instead of going to grad school to get my PHd in Psychology, and realized that this was part of the reason why I was being taught this lesson from the spirits. However, I was left in a financial position with a pile of debt from medical bills and career uncertainty, so the spirits were not only showing me the errors of my ways, there were also making it nearly impossible to fix these errors. The conclusion I came to , through faith based reasoning, is that I have to not think about not being able to go after my dreams, but think about developing a pattern that will allow me to achieve the dreams that were shattered in this life in the next life. quote

# 03 Apr, 2013 19:25

Underwater

@DJMagik

"These things you have listed such as constant hard work, exercise, meditation, and study when even done well could be seen as useless in the eyes of some. Do you measure it in terms of what you get out of it? Nothing as egotistical as money, but self empowerment is okay though, right? How many geniuses died broke such as Tesla and Socrates?"

This is where the protestant work ethic and eastern metaphysics fuse together in my new “religion”. The idea is to not think of the money you get out of working. Money is part of it, because the amount of money one has, if used wisely and not attained or maintained in a way that generates bad karma, can be used to empower one's evolution, if spent on things like supplements, exercise equipment, floatation tank sessions, travel to foreign countries, ect. Also, it's important to have money to protect oneself from downfalls, through medical issues, law suits, or disasters. It's also important to pay for education. Still, money should not be seen as the end all be all. One shouldn't work for the sole purpose of money, but for the self discipline developed through getting up and doing something one doesn't like all day, so this self discipline can be carried over into one's samskaras for the next incarnation. Though one might be stuck in a dead end job in this life, if one develops present mindfulness though meditation, and forward momentum and emotional release through exercise, the hope is that this mentality of focus, energy, and present minded based perseverance and patience will be carried over to more favorable circumstances in the next incarnation, and one can use the pattern that was developed under less favorable circumstance to propel oneself to self actualization and higher up the ladder of spiritual evolution.

I haven't seen the documentary you mentioned, but the experienced mentioned in my OP ties into that. I used to fancy myself a mountain warrior, snowboarding, mountain biking, trail running, and summit hiking. When I came to a point in my health issues when I realized I will never do any of those things anymore, it became first an identity crisis, and then a spiritual crisis. The way things happened with my body seemed like it was an engineered process designed by a higher power, maybe karma, but I don't know. What burned me was that the activities I could no longer do had made me feel like I was on a path to self actualization. I felt myself transforming into a new person, one that my former self would never imagine possible. Then, my body fell apart piece by piece. I thought obsessively about what the spirits (for lack of a better term) were trying to teach me, or if I was being punished, or what the meaning of it all was.

I came to the conclusion that this wasn't meant to be the incarnation in which I reach self actualization. I was being taught a lesson by the spirits, one, that once all my “toys” were taken away, at the core, I'm just a winy, scared little boy. I also felt like I had been shown a preview of what my mind will go through at the moment of death. I looked back on my life with a lot of regret. I had regret that I had chosen the mountain life instead of going to grad school to get my PHd in Psychology, and realized that this was part of the reason why I was being taught this lesson from the spirits. However, I was left in a financial position with a pile of debt from medical bills and career uncertainty, so the spirits were not only showing me the errors of my ways, there were also making it nearly impossible to fix these errors. The conclusion I came to , through faith based reasoning, is that I have to not think about not being able to go after my dreams, but think about developing a pattern that will allow me to achieve the dreams that were shattered in this life in the next life.

# 18 Apr, 2013 10:39
PrimalPurpleMoons	Long time listener, first time caller…er…forum-er. First of all, Daniele & Rich, you guys have an awesome show going. The very few posts that seem to downplay Rich's role…make no sense to me. The guy seems really genuine and cool…and a great foil to Daniele's cosmic bacchanalian seduction. Anyway, as for this episode, found it to be one of my favorite yet. Very interesting ideas. I agree with a good deal of what Thaddeus Russel brought up… There is a taboo in our society against anything fun, lackadaisical, sexual, pleasurable, art for art's sake, etc. If it doesn't require hard work and/or suffering, it isn't valid, says our culture. We are way too work-centric. Our intoxicant cycle is a perfect testament to that: Coffee/Red Bull/Cigarettes in the morning, More Coffee/5 Hour Energy Shot/Ritalin(especially if a student) in the afternoon, and Alcohol at night to make your over-stressed body collapse into sleep. But…ANYTHING but marijuana/psychedelics/or anything that increases creativity, empathy, or consciousness overall. Heaven forbid people use intoxicants to do anything but stimulate/de-stimulate! Buuuut…I don't entirely agree with Thaddeus' message. Personally, I respect people with strong work ethics. My #1 passion in life is music. I write/record/play it and study every facet of making music. One of my musical heroes is Jack White. He's rare in today's music world. He's super self-actualized and has what could only be called a hyper-charged protestant work ethic(despite being one of 7 kids in a Detroit Irish Roman-Catholic family). Watch any interview with him. His focus, commitment, passion, and will-power is inspiring(to me anyway). I think the lesson is…make your OWN work ethic. If being a lazy slob bothers you…fight that urge. If you don't care, go ahead and have that extra donut. It's all about NOT giving in to the absurd life-destroying work ethic pumped out by our society. Make your own ethic…and follow that. Jack White did that. He didn't follow the norms of society. He made his own rules, but then made himself stick to those rules. Anyway, that's me 2 cents. Love the show. Have Duncan back on soon! Best guest by far. Love, Sean, listener for life \m/ quote

# 18 Apr, 2013 10:39

PrimalPurpleMoons

Long time listener, first time caller…er…forum-er.

First of all, Daniele & Rich, you guys have an awesome show going. The very few posts that seem to downplay Rich's role…make no sense to me. The guy seems really genuine and cool…and a great foil to Daniele's cosmic bacchanalian seduction.

Anyway, as for this episode, found it to be one of my favorite yet. Very interesting ideas. I agree with a good deal of what Thaddeus Russel brought up… There is a taboo in our society against anything fun, lackadaisical, sexual, pleasurable, art for art's sake, etc. If it doesn't require hard work and/or suffering, it isn't valid, says our culture. We are way too work-centric. Our intoxicant cycle is a perfect testament to that: Coffee/Red Bull/Cigarettes in the morning, More Coffee/5 Hour Energy Shot/Ritalin(especially if a student) in the afternoon, and Alcohol at night to make your over-stressed body collapse into sleep. But…ANYTHING but marijuana/psychedelics/or anything that increases creativity, empathy, or consciousness overall. Heaven forbid people use intoxicants to do anything but stimulate/de-stimulate!

Buuuut…I don't entirely agree with Thaddeus' message. Personally, I respect people with strong work ethics. My #1 passion in life is music. I write/record/play it and study every facet of making music. One of my musical heroes is Jack White. He's rare in today's music world. He's super self-actualized and has what could only be called a hyper-charged protestant work ethic(despite being one of 7 kids in a Detroit Irish Roman-Catholic family). Watch any interview with him. His focus, commitment, passion, and will-power is inspiring(to me anyway).

I think the lesson is…make your OWN work ethic. If being a lazy slob bothers you…fight that urge. If you don't care, go ahead and have that extra donut. It's all about NOT giving in to the absurd life-destroying work ethic pumped out by our society. Make your own ethic…and follow that. Jack White did that. He didn't follow the norms of society. He made his own rules, but then made himself stick to those rules.

Anyway, that's me 2 cents. Love the show. Have Duncan back on soon! Best guest by far.

Love,
Sean, listener for life \m/

# 21 May, 2013 18:42
dhizzo	@underwater To say you regret life on the mountain vs. getting your PhD. I think the situation could be reversed and you'd still be full of regrets. “He who climbs upon the highest mountains laughs at all tragedies, real or imaginary.” ? Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra quote

# 21 May, 2013 18:55
dhizzo	re: protestant work ethic I believe Thad was against the work ethic as a method of control by the highest priests. quote

# 08 Jun, 2013 17:20
StevenSek	I've listened to podcasts #8 through #17 and I must say that this was my favorite of the bunch. Thaddeus is a captivating speaker and his overview of the roots of Puritanism and the Protestant work ethic put a great deal of things into perspective to me in regards to how society generally functions. It's quite interesting to me that the most popular wants and desires of Americans and our culture such as sex, consciousness altering drugs, and goods and services that cater to recreation and having a good time seem to be contradictory to the Puritanical view of the nuclear family, and not to mention behaviors that are detrimental to the effectiveness of the Protestant work ethic. However, our capitalistic system thrives on these wants and desires. I hope that made fucking sense! Thanks Thaddeus! Can't wait to pick up your book! quote

# 08 Jun, 2013 17:20

StevenSek

I've listened to podcasts #8 through #17 and I must say that this was my favorite of the bunch. Thaddeus is a captivating speaker and his overview of the roots of Puritanism and the Protestant work ethic put a great deal of things into perspective to me in regards to how society generally functions.

It's quite interesting to me that the most popular wants and desires of Americans and our culture such as sex, consciousness altering drugs, and goods and services that cater to recreation and having a good time seem to be contradictory to the Puritanical view of the nuclear family, and not to mention behaviors that are detrimental to the effectiveness of the Protestant work ethic. However, our capitalistic system thrives on these wants and desires.

I hope that made fucking sense!

Thanks Thaddeus! Can't wait to pick up your book!